Customize your experience by selecting your role:
Owner, Property Manager, or Traveler
Here is a response that I have gotten, - nice, and he didn't even spell my name right! WE are committing slander! Please get out the list of REALTORS THAT WE DON'T USE!!
----Original Message----- From: Pat Sullivan To: doriwarner Sent: Sun, Feb 26, 2012 2:43 pm Subject: RE: Bill 2089 and your support of it Hi Don, It’s quite surprising to me that you are pointing fingers at Property Managers (Licensed Realtors)when the Rental By Owners have caused this problem! Conservatively guessing, there are probably over 60% of the Rental By Owners that are not paying their GET & TAT taxes to the State of Hawaii. So wouldn’t it be fair to say that the Bill is because of the Rental By Owners non payments or lack thereof to the State? I would warn you against slandering my company or any other Property Mangers name in public when there is nothing we have done wrong. Also…since were on the subject of making proper payments to the State…do you provide your Housekeepers and repair man, etc…with 1099’s…??? Rental By Owners have negatively impacted the State of Hawaii and it’s your fellow Rental By Owners who you should be blaming!!...not the licensed Realtors!! Have a great day! Patrick T. SullivanPrincipal Broker/OwnerSullivan Properties, Inc.10 Hoohui Rd. #110Lahaina, HI. 96761Cell: 808.870.6428Fax: 808.669.8409 From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 11:23 AM To: email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; Pat Sullivan; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com; firstname.lastname@example.org; email@example.com Subject: Bill 2089 and your support of it Hello, I am one of many vacation rental owners that are not happy with this bill, and are doing our best to fight it. You/your company were listed as one of the supporters of this bill. We are circulating the names of your company (and/or you) to the hundreds of self managed vacation rental owners we are in contact with. We have multiple groups we are organizing. This bill will give unfair advantage to real estate agents, and other rental agents working with them. It will negatively affect our livelihoods as self managed vacation rental owners. Dori Warner
I have spoken to my realtor, and he is opposed to this measure, and has spoken out against these bills to other realtors that are proposed. I have been told that the Board of Realtors in Hawaii were originally against these bills, and now they are neutral (probably because they stand to profit from the bills). I have been told that we need to contact the Hawaii Realtor Board (don't have the links or numbers) and get them to support us, that they have a lot of power. Here is a paper that my agent sent me that addresses the issue:
LEGISLATURE REACTS TO RENT BY OWNER BUSINESS MODEL PROPERTY MANAGER PROPOSAL APPEARS TO MOVE FORWARD Licensed property managers who deal with vacation rentals are losing a significant part of their business to a new business model – Rent BY Owner (RBO) -- and they think there should be law against that. Actually, they think there should be a variety of laws against that and have convinced legislators to propose them. And at this point in Hawaii’s annual state legislative process, it appears that the property managers have won the attention of legislators as their bills (House Bills 1706, 1707 and Senate Bills 2078, 2089) are advancing. They are being opposed by the folks who RBO their condos and homes, by the web entities that provide the technology that allows this business model to flourish, and by the Realtors who specialize in selling resort condos. This legislative initiative has set up an awkward situation where the interests of two sides of the Realtor family are banging into each other. The Realtor property managers argue that the new web-based model is not only undermining their businesses, but it is also allowing for absentee owners to break the law with impunity because they are not really engaging the services of an on-island property manager – as required by law -- and they are unlikely to be paying their required GET and TAT (a combined 13.25 percent on gross) when there is no way for the state to know who is renting to whom for how long. The Realtors who specialize in resort sales who I have spoken to, uniformly argue that their clients are paying the tax and have contracted with someone – just not a Realtor – to provide on-island management services. Of course, that “manager” is likely also to be the condo’s cleaner. And under state law, that unlicensed manager may only serve one client in that capacity. Who knows how many cleaners or handy-men have morphed into managers with more than one client despite the requirements of the law? And if the state were so inclined to enforce that requirement, who would enforce it? And how? It is doubtful that the Legislature is that interested in this new class of unlicensed cleaner-managers. More likely, the Legislature’s interest was peaked by the property managers’ claims that the state is losing $30 million annually in unpaid TAT and GET. Given how asymmetric this web-based business model is, there will never be a way to know how much the state is actually losing. But given how hard pressed for cash the state has been over the last couple of years, the legislative interest in this issue is not surprising. The Property Managers argue the only way the state can assure that it gets its fair share is to require that short-term rentals owned by out-of-state residents be managed by state-licensed property managers and that these managers file their GET and TAT statements for the owners. They have also proposed in legislation that out-of-state owners also have to declare who their manager is to the condo AOAO or to a residential HOA and that their rental advertisements must include a tax identification number issued by the state. To an outside observer, these all seem like reasonable requirements. But then comes the realization that for these requirements to work, someone is going to have to enforce them. And that enforcing rules at this regulatory level and at this volume has not been one of the State of Hawaii’s strengths. Given the heavy volume involved, one observer suggested that would like the state holding back a tsunami. To the out of state condo owners, however, there is nothing reasonable about these requirements. About two weeks ago VRBO and a number of other web-based rental services got wind of these proposals and put the word out to the property owners who utilize their services. Since then the Hawaii legislative committees have been flooded with testimony from out-of-state owners who declare that they are already paying the required tax, that requiring them to go through licensed property managers is an “outrageous restraint of trade.” They point out that some of these managers demand as much as 40 percent of the gross for their services, which – when coupled with the high TAT/GET tax rates and increasing maintenance costs – leaves them no profit or maybe even a net loss. It is still way too early to say how the proposed measures will fare or morph in the legislative process. What ever is adopted will undoubtedly cause a reaction in the market place. One suggestion is that is that another Realtor property manager model will emerge, one in which the manager will provide exactly the minimum required by the new law – like keeping the property’s books for the owner and paying the taxes – in exchange for a much lower service cost. But we should also not lose sight on another of the Realtor property managers’ points: consumer protection. When a visitor spends a significant amount to reserve vacation rental, someone needs to be responsible to assure that they get what they paid for – that the apartment is not double booked; that the lock works; that the room is cleaned, etc. For some folks, this is the first time, maybe the only time, they are coming to Hawaii. There should be an effort to make sure they have a quality experience. It is doubtful, they point out, that you can count on the cleaning lady to provide that type of assurance. At this writing, our state association, the Hawaii Association of Realtors, which follows and lobbies for our industry at the Legislature is in a “monitoring” mode on this issue. The originators of these proposals did not include HAR in on their creation and the association has been left in a reactive role as a result. HAR is supporting Senate Bill 2078, which requires that advertisements for short-term rentals have state issued tax identification numbers on them. Because the owners of these properties should be paying their required taxes in any case, HAR is supporting that measure.
thanks for the productrive comment.
I think you all are wasting your time. The legislators have a responsibility to the voters to make sure all who need to pay are paying.
They don't want to hear about your guests, your realtor problems and your non-voting criticisms.
I think helping them find a solution instead of slamming has more aloha spirit than what YOU have been providing.
You hit the nail on the head when you say that the legislators have a responsibility to the voters to make sure all who need to pay are paying.
It is true that the non-resident does not have the privilege of voting in the state of Hawaii, but what you must realize is how much the non-resident helps the state of Hawaii by providing nice homes for tourists to stay in. We pay local help to take care of our homes (gardeners, repairmen, etc., on call agent) and we pay GE & TA taxes. And if there are people who don't pay their taxes, then you are absolutely correct that the legislators and tax department need to find the cheaters.
Just understand that this new legislation will not ensure this. And it will reek much more havoc than the state already has.
I can think of quite a few solutions without new legislantion. I won't list them here as they have been said before - enforce the laws that exist!!!
Maybe I should make calls to my legislator to explore the possibility of fining the GUESTS of unlicensed delinquent who stay at their properties.
Maybe that would be better than realtor requirements
I have a few tips I will offer that are constructive and proactive instead of throwing blame and talking about communism.
1- If you are not licensed or tax delinquent, get current now.
2- if you are licensed and compliant then let the world know you are by being more transparent. this includes
placing your tax info and permitting info on your websites and where ever people can see them
3-make the addresses of your properties available to the public
include in your website verbage that you are licensed/compliant and proud of it
4-keep your Hawaii info on your site relevant and include articles that promote Hawaii
5-separate yourselves from who are non-compliant
This will be helpful int hte long run to separate yourselves from those who are just in Hawaii to exploit.
If you need help with any or all of this please let me know.
I'm tired of idle *****ing and complainers.
Likely to be a cumbersome process at best.
I have no doubt there is a segment of renters who would prefer to not pay the GE/TAT and might seek out accommodations that don't.
Sent from my iPad2
Please visit vacation.ninolehawaii.com
you continue to go under the unproven assumption that there is a lot of tax
cheating going on. What is the foundation of your theory?
Do you believe that your grocery store is cheating on taxes because they
take payment in cash too? Owners are paid in checks and credit cards so
have paper trail and are required to report income on their federal tax
return. Do you think they are committing federal tax fraud. Why do you
think they are less honest than the property managers? I suspect that the
reverse is true - and by a wide margin. At least the owners are not making
up numbers and throwing them out as facts - which is what the property
managers are doing in a thinly concealed attempt to gain at the expense of
others because they have not kept pace with the internet age
Can you believe that this is what one property manager said in an email?
From: Pat Sullivan
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 1:56 PM
... To: Recipients are void to protect them
Subject: FW: Housing Committee Result - Bill HB 1706
I didn't have time yesterday to provide written testimony but they passed
the initial Bill with a complete affirmative vote from the House...The Bill
will require all mainland owners who rent their homes or condos out to have
a licensed Realtor on island...ie...Bayer...vinson...erdt...~~j5 way the
State can make sure everyone is paying their GET and TAT... yee hahhhhlll!
But don't tell anyone yet...let the Bill get passed! !...then we can get
some $$$...unless they find a cheap Broker who will represent them for
I highly doubt that most would be interested in non-compliant rentals.
To spend savings on Hawaii vacation to have it spoiled by something so avoidable?
Once in a lifetime trip, thousands on airfare, car,etc. Don think so.
Hnlgirl can find non compliant owners by looking up Maui North shore: Paia, Pukalani, Makawao, Kula, Haiku. 95% are not zoned for vacation rentals, so it would be very hard for them to then pay tax. Also you can find realtors who are renting out properties there illegally, and thus not paying taxes too.
I checked the online GET and I can't get my GET number to show up unless I input my number entirely. Seems the website has issues.
I still believe that the law is going to aid the realtors by forcing owners to pay their fees, and not really the state.
I hate to lose my personal freedom in choice of how to manage my personal property, by being forced to hire an agency by a law.
Guests should not trust anyone dishonest and their best bet is to go with
the property owners since they can not just pick up and leave town and have
a interest in maintaining their property
However I fully support the right of free choice and would not consider
attempting to ban property mangers
Hnlhulagir I am get the feeling you are a property manager with a vested
60% - somehow I doubt it. Not a very friendly response for sure.
I again suggest that a semi permanent website listing these people in a non slanderous manner could be most effective:
I see many illegals as I travel to each island each month. I see more in each passing trip. 60-70 percent are non-compliant as I've looked it up, but it's not my job to keep data.
But most recently I have seen responsible owners who want approval follow the process which includes posting signs of anticipated permitting, approval of neighbors and such.
The complaints have been ongoing for years from all walks of life and from all islands. Maui had taken steps to rein in many who are operating under the radar. Maui continues to flourish even with stronger regulation
Legislators cannot ignore the complaints from voters. Data or no data. And apparantly they have it because they wouldn't move forward if they didn't.
Actually there has been a crack down on flea market and swap meet vendors. New law passed saying that they have to account for their cash transactions
I'm sure owners get paid in check or credit card but many will also take paypal, cash at the door with a cc deposit travellers checks and who knows what else in this internet age.
This is not about those who are complying it's about those who aren't so stop complaining and become compliant and make sure your guests know that you are.
Those here who want to write to the press will find that the story will end up with an angle that will ultimately hurt the vacation rental business as a whole, so I strongly do not advise that. No one is interested in legislative complaints in the press anymore. They are interested in the illegal vacation rentals and highly valued Hawaii vacations. The slant will make all vacation renals look questionable and shady and will ultimately hurt those who are compliant. I don't have to tell this intelligent group what the press can do or can't do, but I can tell you that they are not a public forum for airing your personal issues and they will slant that story to boost viewership and readership to their sole benefit.
So unless you like shooting yourself in the foot, pi**ing on a flat rock, don't do it.